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Tag: Goth. Goth Subculture

My Response To That Recent MTV ‘Goth’ Article

Just so that you know what side of the equation I stand on. Jello is life.

Imagine my shock and horror when I found out that an article about ‘goth’ had appeared on MTV’s website. Why shock and horror? Because MTV has had a very long history of promoting corporate music. The Dead Kennedys back in the 80’s knew what was up and Jello even penned an excellent song detailing the issues surrounding the channel. About forty years later and nothing has changed.

First off, before I get stuck in, when the fuck did it become cool to be excited about MTV? I was a teen in the 80’s, so yes I did watch it back then. However, by the late 80’s I understood what was going on; they were trying to sell and promote their idea of ‘cool’ to me. By the time The Beastie Boys came about with their very sexist and frat boy bullshit the channel was dead to me. Where I lived at the time there was a local channel that would show obscure alternative/modern rock videos every weekday late in the afternoon and I would always watch it. It was the music that was too ‘out there’ for MTV, so I was very fortunate. I know this.

Let’s begin! I will be showing the sections I have issues with and then I will give a response.

‘ How e-kid style presaged the dark subculture’s resurgence… ‘

From the very start this article makes me wince. The term ‘presaged’ means a sign or warning of an imminent event. I fully don’t understand how some e-kid fashion victims had anything to do with the goth music resurgence that has been happening for the last few years. Oh wait…the author is equating goth with just a fashion style? Oh dear.

A new aesthetic inspired by Y2K futurism, anime, nu-metal, mall goth, and mid-’00s emo rose among a group dubbed the “e-kids.” This interest in 2K culture reignited an adjacent style as well: goth fashion and, by extension, goth music.

Um….no, just no. The whole ‘e-kid’ crap did not reignite goth fashion or goth music. Goth fashion and goth music never went away, it has always been around. These e-kids are so desperate for an identity, any identity, that they try them on and then throw them away once they are done with them after a few months. Teens have always done this sort of thing, but because of the internet they just go through identities way more quickly and in a more shallow manner. For example, if these kids want to be ‘goth’ they will get their parents to buy them entire outfits from dark alternative clothing websites and ask around as to how they should do their make-up so that they can be judged as a ‘true goth’. For many that is how deep it goes; just a ready made fashion statement, a box to fit themselves into. Do some of them actually get into goth music? Of course, but I think they are heavily outnumbered by the ones who don’t.

The roots of goth are deep and nuanced. Starting in the late 1970s and into the 1980s in the United Kingdom as an offshoot of post-punk acts like Killing Joke, as well as the rich voice of Nico, goth took inspiration from Victorian-era dress (long black gowns, lace, boots, and clove cigarettes), literature, society, and the grim theatrical nature of the early 20th century vamps and silent film stars, like Theda Bara. The term “goth” as an adjective for music wasn’t recorded until 1967, when music critic John Stickney called The Doors “gothic rock.” During the ’70s, goth developed in the United States with bands like Christian Death, known for seminal hits like 1982’s “Romeo’s Distress.” Some of the most famous goth groups in the ’80s — many of whom remain shorthand for the very word — include The Cure, Siouxsie and the Banshees, and Joy Division.

I know that I just quoted an entire paragraph, but there is just so much to unpack here that I feel like I have no choice in the matter. The goth subculture, which is mainly about the music, came right out of punk. The clothing aspect of the goth subculture also came right out of punk. Earlier goth bands, like Sex Gang Children, still had the punk ethos of making music that challenged people, that made people think. They just did it more artistically than the punk music that inspired them. Also, not everybody back then copied Victorian fashion. People within the early subculture were not just one block of people listening to Bauhaus and dressing like fainting Victorian ingenues. What does smoking cloves have to do with the Victorians? I just liked cloves in the late 80’s because they tasted good and you could get really tripped out by spinning around while you inhaled. That was a thing within my friend group. Yes, it is okay to find that funny because it is.

Oh no, not the whole The Doors were the first band to be called ‘gothic rock’ trope. No matter how many times people are corrected about this it always manages to bubble to the surface like toxic goo. Since the goth subculture didn’t exist in the 1960’s how the hell could the band be considered goth? What the reporter back in the 1960’s meant is that The Doors had a sound that could be called foreboding and dark; in other words gothic, because that is what the term means. The term gothic does not always equate the term goth, they can mean totally different things; one is about a subculture, the other is a style of architecture and literature.

I do not know how many more times I have to repeat this but JOY DIVISION IS NOT A GOTH BAND. I even wrote an earlier blog post all about the subject. Ian Curtis killed himself in early 1980, before the subculture was even formed so that fact alone throws the whole thing out the window. Did Joy Division inspire a lot of goth bands during the 80’s? Sure. Were they themselves a goth band? That would be a no, because they influenced tons of bands that were in no way goth like U2. Plus, I think fitting Joy Division into a neat and tidy goth box does the music of the band a disservice. I have always considered The Cure and Siouxsie & The Banshees to both be dark pop bands that some goths happen to like. I saw The Cure live in 1987 headlining a sold out arena show. You weren’t an underground band back then if you sold out a venue like that. Plus, both bands were played on the more mainstream stations back in the 80’s. That is how I first heard The Cure back then; Boys Don’t Cry being played on a regular pop station that my then friends were listening to.

‘ As social media has since taken over culture, and as apps progress and new ones launch, subcultures develop from terminally online lifestyles where the association lines are often blurred. What is or isn’t goth becomes harder to identify. ‘

I actually agree with this bit a little. Social media has taken over culture to some degree, BUT only as much as an individual wants it to. It is still totally possible to have a social life outside of social media, especially since clubs are opening up again and bands are touring. Social media isn’t the be all and end all of the goth, or any other, subculture. Yes, what is and isn’t goth is harder for newer people to identify. I know that the author was trying to do a good thing by sharing all of this, but in the end all articles such as this, that spread misinformation, are doing more harm than good. Especially considering that this article was published over on the website of MTV.

‘ Today, it feels fitting for goth to be passed down through TikTok, just like it was through Tumblr in the 2000s with soft grunge and pastel goth taking over adolescent closets, with looks built from black velvet chokers, flannels, and shorts styled with black nylons. The neo-goth invasion picked up steam in 2020 when Belarus-based band Molchat Doma’s album Etahzi started gaining traction, with users clinging to the track “Sudno” and soundtracking the song by posting pictures from Soviet-era Europe, both romanticizing it and showing the harsh reality of life in the Eastern Bloc. ‘

Oh dear god so much to unpack here. When they mention ‘goth’ being passed down through Tumbler to TikTok all they are meaning is the fashion. Sorry to tell everybody who doesn’t know but ‘grunge’ was pre-packaged rebellion sold to the masses in the 90’s by record execs and MTV. I was there, that is all it was. It had nothing to do with the goth subculture at all. Nothing. I wore ripped shorts with tights underneath them in high school in the late 80’s, and I even had a flannel shirt or two. Both things were worn by people in the metal, punk, and every other alternative subculture at the time. This fashion was only made popular when MTV got a hold of it in the early 90’s and all of a sudden it became popular to look like the unpopular kids. Since the 80’s are still hugely popular teens only liked Molchat Doma because their music sounds like it came out of Stranger Things. It’s just 80’s nostalgia, it doesn’t go any deeper than that.

‘Meanwhile, Los Angeles-based musician and producer Aryan Ashtiani, who goes by the moniker Mareux, became a TikTok sensation overnight with his 2021 cover of The Cure’s “The Perfect Girl,” taking a floaty song originally from their 1987 album Kiss Me, Kiss Me, Kiss Me to gritty electronic depths. Mareux’s synth-heavy reinterpretation sparked a movement on TikTok, with some well-known users posting videos using it as a backing. Mareux was shocked. “There were a few very famous TikTokers who used the song back in summer ’21. This gave it that boost overnight,” he tells MTV News. “From there, it ran rampant on various edits and meme videos and continues to this day.”’

Who? I honestly don’t know who this person is. Does that make me terminally old and not hip? Sure. I just listened to the song and it’s meh? In all honesty it just sounds like an amalgamation of all of the sounds that teens associate with 80’s music all mixed together ready for easy consumption. That is exactly why it got popular with that set of people. Again, it’s just 80’s nostalgia boosted by Stranger Things. Next!

‘Last year, Dua Lipa was photographed by Jordan Hemingway for 032c, styled in a Trad Goth look inspired by Siouxsie Sioux. GothTok celebrity Zander Buel, a.k.a. awfullysinister, posted a video praising her for the ensemble, saying, “I think she looks great! She nailed it.” Buel is another face of the subculture on the internet.’

Again, I have no idea who these two people are, however I remember when this happened. The people who I remember freaking out the most about this were all of the self described ‘goth’ teens, who thought being goth was just about image and that’s it. I have let it be known before but I cannot stand the whole ‘trad goth’ trope. It’s just goth for fucks sake, take the term ‘trad’ and throw it into the waste-bin where it belongs with all of the other ‘goth types’.

‘“When goth goes through this cycle, like it does every so often where it has its ascendance in popularity, it takes a bunch of people with it,” he says. “Some of the people, it spits back out, and those people move on to the next thing. But some people, it takes with them, and then they keep that long-term interest in that label, and they stay within it and they continue to listen to the music, or they go to the clubs and shows, and they discover new bands.”’

This is the only full paragraph in the whole article that I feel is 100% correct. Most of these teens right now are probably going to move on within the next year or two and some will indeed stick with it and really get into the music. This happens in every subculture.

‘Dusty Gannon, of the band Vision Video, has become TikTok’s “Goth Dad,” a comedic character he made up to provide reassurance and levity through his dad jokes, makeup tutorials, and advice, while also promoting his music. Aside from being a digital dad, Gannon has focused energy on explaining goth culture and history, and the importance of maintaining a safe community.’

I am going to be wording my response to this bit very carefully. Gannon has created a gimmick and has made it his profession; he recently quit his job to be a full-time musician. On the one hand I think good for him for carving out his own niche within the goth community, but on the other hand my stranger danger hackles rise up because who financially can take a chance like that right now? I’m not saying he is a bad person at all, just that the way he promotes himself specifically to teens can be easily seen as such by people who are older and who have been around the block a few times. He just ticks off so many boxes that it feels like an act of some kind to me. If you enjoy him and his music more power to you, I just can’t support him. You do you.

‘ Where is the future headed? Bauhaus, one of the original goth bands, released a new single for the first time in 14 years in March, and they are touring again.

…..and the single sounds exactly like the music that they made forty years ago. No real growth.

‘ “Most of the other artists have not embraced TikTok because they think it’s cringe or detracts from their brand. I saw a huge opportunity to connect with fans and create new ones and haven’t looked back,” he says. “In regards to younger people, I think a lot of the stigma towards goth and alternative cultures in the past was linked to homophobia. Now that mainstream culture is more open and accepting, I think a lot of these previously disenfranchised scenes will continue to flourish.” ‘

Homophobia was huge period until fairly recently. If you looked too different in the 80’s/90’s, no matter how you dressed, you were called a faggot. Funnily enough those name calling people got into ‘grunge’ and played at being alternative until that trend died with Cobain. They would drive their cars around blasting Smells Like Teen Spirit while yelling ‘faggot’ at you as they drove by. Anybody who was around back then knows exactly the crowd I am talking about. Mainstream culture has never been as accepting as it appears; scratch the surface and you find out what is really going on.

‘ As the scene grows, the community is full of Baby Bats and Elder Goths ready to share the experience of dancing to darkly dazzling tunes and breathing in fog from the smoke machines. However, that only happens if we continue passing down the music and fashion. TikTok is divisive, but it can be influential, opening doors into new worlds and allowing us to experience other avenues of expression and art. Beyond likes and views, exposure is paramount. ‘

Exposure to actual goth music is indeed important to the continuation of the subculture. However, when the music being shared is not goth by any stretch of the term that is when all of the confusion sets in. It is the reason why a lot of older folks, such as myself, largely stay away from specifically TikTok. TikTok is divisive because of all of this and more. Not to mention the fact that it is a phone app being used by the Chinese government to spy and collect data on people.

‘ “It’s probably going to be a mess for a while,” he continues. “It’s in a transitional stage where it’s becoming very mainstream. People love to fight and argue and gatekeep online, so I can see it staying ugly for a while. Still, that doesn’t mean there won’t be plenty of cool creators and new artists to discover.” ‘

Gatekeep? More like telling the truth. A huge issue right now is people throwing that word around when they are told the truth about goth music and the goth subculture. When they find out that their favourite black metal band is in fact not considered to be a goth band they get all pissed off and throw around the term like rice at a wedding. Goth music has parameters, and without them there wouldn’t be a goth genre of music or even a subculture for that matter. It’s a music based subculture. If it was based on just wearing black, like some younger people and publications still think, then wouldn’t you see priests and nuns dancing around in goth clubs to This Is Heresy by Christian Death?

The end.

The Kardashianization Of The Goth Subculture Needs To Stop

Society’s wannabe ‘goth’ couple of the moment.

Kardashianization is a mighty long word, but I think it describes perfectly what has been happening within the last few years in the goth subculture. Unreal beauty standards, that are normal in ‘mainstream’ society, have wormed their way into the goth subculture. I think that has always been on the back burner, but lately it really feels like things have ramped up since everybody wants to call themselves a ‘goth’ these days.

Before the advent of the internet taking photos of yourself wasn’t really a thing. Friends would take photos of you, clubs would take photos of you, but would you take photos of yourself? Not really. Don’t get me wrong, there would be attention seekers in goth/alternative clubs who would always get their photos taken, but they were in the minority and usually thought of as uber goobers. I only have a few photos of myself from the 80’s and 90’s because I personally avoided people with cameras and I am okay with that. My hair was a mess most of the time and nobody needs to see that.

I have nothing against taking selfies of yourself, but what I do have a problem with are the people who manipulate their selfies to such a degree that it pushes an unrealistic standard of beauty. That is why I call this phenomenon the Kardashianization of the subculture, because younglings are doing the exact same thing as the Kardashians; posting photos of themselves that depict a fantasy rather than a reality. They create a ‘goth’ image of themselves that they think others will approve of, a judgement that will make them a ‘true goth’. I wish I was kidding about this, but I’m not.

Notice how this has nothing to do with the music of the goth subculture? They are basing their whole identity off of a dark aesthetic while listening to bands that are in no way goth at all. There is nothing the matter with loving different genres of music, but if you don’t like or listen to any actual goth music you aren’t a goth. An aesthetic does not a goth make.

The look that the modern wannabe ‘trad goths’ aspire to. How original.

For whatever reason many of these younglings are calling themselves ‘trad goths’. In their selfies they will have backcombed hair, Siouxsie clone make-up and at least one article of clothing that is fishnet in nature. To be included in their ranks you have to look like one another because that is how goths looked in the 80’s/90’s of course! Yes, I’m being sarcastic. Back in the late 80’s/early 90’s most of us didn’t look like that. I only ever saw that look at clubs, and it wasn’t done by a large amount of people. The most onerous aspect to all of this is that they will quite frequently lighten their face and blur it so much that their skin looks unreal, not a pore or realistic shadow to be seen. Again, how is this any different than what the Kardashians do on a regular basis?

Where do these younglings get these ideas from? The mainstream reporting of certain celebrities being goth because of them wearing black lipstick certainly doesn’t help at all. Many younglings think that they are automatically goth if they dress in black, not understanding that the subculture has always been centred upon the music. Material consumption is something that is encouraged in our society in general and these people buy into it and spend a ton of money to look like something that they really are not; a goth.

Don’t like being compared to the Kardashians? Then stop basing your identity on manipulated photos and how others perceive you. What you are doing is in no way original and the only people who will take you at all seriously will be the other people who also don’t know what they are on about. It’s a huge perpetuating circle jerk. This behaviour is in no way unique, in no way different as to how ‘normal’ society behaves and yet they will endlessly bitch and moan about how society sucks and how ‘normies’ are boring. All the while exhibiting the same exact behaviour as the people they supposedly dislike. What they are doing is not any different just because they are dressed in black and are wearing black lipstick.

When I see heavily manipulated photos in online goth communities I call them out because the only way this is ever going to change is if people speak out about it and challenge this behaviour. There are younglings out there that love goth music and yet they think they can’t be goth because they don’t look like said photos; they don’t have perfect white skin and they don’t have the money to buy clothes from a dark clothing site. I find this sad as all hell because the poseurs and wannabes who perpetuate this crap are stopping actual goth music fans from joining the subculture; blocking their way into it by means of selfie blurring tools and mum and dad’s money.

Instead of spending countless hours retouching and blurring the crap out of your selfies why not sit down and listen to some actual goth music. Don’t like being compared to vacuous ‘celebrities’ who have no discernable talent? Then be yourself instead of jumping on the goth train without paying your fare.

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